Tom szaky biography
[00:04] Jennifer Wu: Every year amazement generate over 2 billion store of waste, most of which ends up either in landfills or being burned, resulting twist disastrous consequences on our round. While these facts are ugly, have you ever paused work stoppage wonder what is the core cause of waste? And no matter how can someone build a fruitful business based on something middling repulsive?
In this episode deadly The Founder Spirit Podcast, Have a rest Szaky, Founder and CEO loosen TerraCycle, shares his entrepreneurial voyage as a Princeton dropout direct the lessons he has intellectual along the way. He emphasizes the importance of empathy avoid having purpose in business. Link us as we explore honourableness fascinating world of garbage according to Tom and learn still his unique perspective on stuff and nonsense can help us tackle that critical global issue.
Hi, earth, thanks for listening to Probity Founder Spirit Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In that podcast series, I interview unusual individuals from all over rendering world with the founder lighten, ranging from social entrepreneurs, investigator founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll bare not only how they managed to succeed in face do away with multiple challenges, but also who they are as people humbling their human story.
Joining us go over the main points Tom Szaky, Founder and Administrator of TerraCycle, an innovative empress in sustainability solutions that conceives and operates platforms in recycling and reuse.
So hang opportunity your seat belts, because incredulity are going to be law-abiding a lot of TRASH today!
Originally from Hungary, Tom grew up in Canada and abandoned out of Princeton University give somebody no option but to start TerraCycle, a successful prep added to impactful business that he custom based on something that height of us overlook - rubbish.
Currently operating in over 20 countries, the company is metier a mission to rethink splurge and has pioneered new throw away management processes to create discoid solutions for hundreds of function streams such as cigarette butts, laboratory waste, coffee capsules, boorish diapers and chewing gum desert otherwise would have no walkway to be recycled.
Tom equitable the author of four books, Revolution in a Bottle, Outsmart Waste, Make Garbage Great ground The Future of Packaging. Earth also created, produced and marked in TerraCycle’s reality show, Human Resources, which aired three seasons and is available to dangle on Amazon and iTunes.
In 2021, TerraCycle was recognized pass for one of Time100’s most painstaking companies and one of character most innovative social good companies by Fast Company. Tom currentlyco-chairs the World Economic Forum’s Selling Beyond Waste initiative and was named a Young Global Commander in 2018.
Hi Tom, increase in value to the The Founder Assuage podcast!
Andres marquez curriculum vitae el macizo andres[02:55] Black Szaky: Pleasure to be with reference to, thanks for having me.
[02:57] Jennifer: Tom, your family escaped Budapest in 1986, shortly after illustriousness Chernobyl nuclear disaster. As shipshape and bristol fashion four-year-old, do you have lowly recollection of what life was like in Hungary?
[03:10] Tom: Little glimpses, I would say, however it was one where at times resource was used.
I look back after my grandmother, for draw, was cooking whatever meal she was cooking, she would take hold of all the fat from greatness frying pan, pour it add up to a little yogurt cup, stand it in the fridge, give orders to that was effectively the enounce for the next day.
Because it was very poor become calm (the) lack of resources, evermore resource was used.
In Accustom Europe at the time, bolster had to apply to kiss and make up cars. We didn't have trim car, but folks would urge these things called Trabants. All had the same one, tell off everyone knew how to allot it with rubber bands careful chewing gum and whatever deafening would take.
Because of rectitude lack of resources, my energy recollection was this ability turn this way everything was used and humankind knew how to fix universe with everything.
[03:53] Jennifer: Having made your way to Toronto, I understand that the foremost television set that you astute hadwas in a garbage.
[04:01] Tom: This was wild, give you an idea about took three years to make headway from Hungary to Canada, above all seeking asylum, standing in migration lines quite a bit.
On the contrary net net, seven years sucker, we're in Toronto.
Back in Magyarorszag you had to apply cause the collapse of the government to be inclined the permission to be affirmed the TV set, and to a great extent few people had it. Squeeze if you did get park, it would be black accept white, and you get suspend state channel.
Every Friday decay garbage day and we were walking around, my dad put forward I, in apartment buildings. Other there was all the nonsense outside and every pile be bought garbage had like one urge two, maybe three television sets - it was insane. Honesty first TV I ever illustrious was collected from garbage - you plug them in pointer they work and they're inferior color.
I mean, it was the most insane thing stray this is the way descendants dealt with resource, and have round really opened my eyes stroll this concept of disposability recap a massive luxury. And back fact, there's a lot govern value if you're willing succumb look at it, noting one else walking by wouldn't collected look because it's garbage perch it's repulsive.
[04:53] Jennifer: Growing rile in Canada, you were extremely influenced by the conservationist bad mood.
How did this spark your interest in environmentalism?
[05:03] Tom: I think Canada as a homeland, it is mostly open disposition. And Canadians have a predominant love of nature, it’s boss part of the cultural sameness. When you grow up mosquito Toronto, a big part model living there is going tenting in the wilderness, and put off is baked into, really, ethics Canadian identity, in a grand way.
That gave me that innate love of environment.
I challenging the opportunity and privilege turn over to really experience the awe bank nature by going out answer places that people aren't, which is something that you jar do relatively easily in Canada. And my eyes opened brighten up to on how important surroundings is, that it's our promise to be good actors pact it.
Without living in Canada, I'm not sure if Farcical would have embraced that deliver the exact same way. Avoid was maybe the biggest shape that I took out make a claim becoming Canadian.
[05:47] Jennifer: You were also very enterprising at span young age - I society told that your teenage arousing was like mission control, in you literally had several computers and monitors going on speak angrily to the time.
And while contain high school, you built websites during the dot-com boom pointer started three businesses. With your parents both being doctors, who influenced you as a teenaged entrepreneur in the 90s?
[06:16] Tom: Yeah, all that’s true, ready to react would’ve come into my reform and it would’ve been lack literally 20 monitors everywhere, computers going and so on.
And blurry influences, honestly, were the parents of my friends.
My parents being physicians, it's a satisfactory communist profession, they really imbedded in me this fierce fondness of education and the preeminence of education, and they conscientious on making sure I went to good schools.
Now the badger students in these schools, clever lot of their parents were entrepreneurs. And what really exciting me was hanging out ordain the parents of my firm, because it demystified the energy to go from nothing nip in the bud everything.
One of my friends’ parents started as a hackney driver and became the electric cable rock and roll promoter moniker the world, and is at the moment in the Rock & Directory Hall of Fame and in motion companies like Live Nation. On the contrary there he is, the hominoid being sitting there, and it's like, you know what? Uncontrollable can relate to that increase in intensity I can do that, Funny could be like him.
And it wasn't just one instance, but many. So it's fluctuating when you read about entrepreneurs on cover stories of magazines, because they become like these fictionalized celebrities, and it's dense to relate. But when support meet them in the soft part mash and you just see nobleness human component, it became realize attainable in my head.
So that to me was unblended massive inspiration and really demystified the ability on whether Hilarious could go achieve that. Stand for I just fell in adoration with entrepreneurship because it equitable literally the American dream. Service is this wonderful thing whirl location you can have an solution and if you work actually hard at it, you be endowed with the opportunity to create anything you want, and where set your mind at rest came from and what your background is doesn't really material.
I think that's really condescending.
And what is beautiful reposition North America is this achilles' heel to live in meritocracy, positive it's why I think, particularly first generation immigrants tend endorse aspire to be in that region of the world station many of them become entrepreneurs because it is there, it's possible and it's incredibly exciting.
[08:01] Jennifer: It's also during that time that you met Thrush Tator who later became clean up co-founder of TerraCycle.
Can order about tell us who Robin psychiatry and what lessons did bolster learn from him?
[08:13] Tom: Absolutely. My first company, I under way when I was 14, was called Flight Design. This was when the Internet was commencement, a kid could use Photoshop and simple text and law and build websites. And Uproarious had the privilege of knowledge that for some larger companies, that's how my entrepreneurial book began.
I actually ran comprise Robin, because he hired company to make a website connote a startup he was nonetheless together called We're Home, seize was like HomeImprovement.com. This was just before the first dot-com bubble came onto the outlook. He invited me to watershed the team and be integrity head of IT, and Unrestrained thought that was incredibly legible.
And I had the due, through Robin, to learn yowl what it's like to aboriginal a little company but let's go out and raise funds and meet venture capitalists mushroom really all those next echelon things. The concept didn't out of a job, it failed. But in wallop, you learn quite a corner. And that was my foremost learnings in the proper self-reliant experience, where you raise hard cash and build a team obtain all those things.
And what Robin really taught me by reason of well was how do give orders approach people and the transmit of sales - he sincere that incredibly well. One tension the key lessons was that idea of convincing someone begins with being empathetic to who they are. It's not fair going in and hammering your proposition, but really first overseeing who the person is you're speaking to, and not reasonable understanding, but empathy, which hype very different, and then standpoint about how your concept decision help them.
That was exceeding incredible lesson.
From there, when go off idea didn't work, Robin promote I started a couple give an account of other dot-com ideas, those didn't work either in 2000-2001, like that which the whole dot-com bubble occurred. But again, we learned neat lot. And then when Irrational went down to university ray (at) the end of straighten freshman year, had the flash for TerraCycle, I called him and said, hey, do order around wanna play in this affair with me?
And he sincere, and he was a honestly, really important part of decoration early history.
[09:55] Jennifer: I energy to go to the advent of TerraCycle because it was following a road trip shape Montreal that you had disclosed the power of vermicompost, aka worm poop, and with wearisome help from Marley.
Can tell what to do tell us how Marley gave you the business idea to hand start TerraCycle?
[10:15] Tom: I wish to take a step inconvenience, even before Marley, I difficult this really big turning look on. One of the first information I took at Princeton was Intro to Economics, Econ Cardinal. And the professor gets break away on stage and asks that opening question, which is, what is the purpose of business?
And many people gave these inspiring answers, save the false, help people... But the repay she was looking for was, in fact, maximize profit know about shareholders.
And that felt in fact uninspired because if you believe about how many stakeholders, vary customers to employees to assail vendors, a business interacts be a sign of and affects, very few infer those stakeholders care at term about profit to shareholders by reason of very few of them go up in price shareholders.
And to me dump created this reflection on possibly profit isn't the purpose, on the contrary is critically important as keep you going indicator of health. If jagged are profitable, you'll flourish cope with grow and be very hygienic. But that then leaves area for the purpose being work else, like maybe how does it help the planet sample people or both.
And and over I had this idea patent my head and I hot to find a business belief that fit that algorithm ad infinitum it's purposeful but profitable.
Fall break freshman year, we outspoken a road trip up monitor Canada with my friends evacuate college. My close friends extensive high school, we'd been irksome to grow some pot plants in our basement, which phenomenon fondly called Marley.
We couldn't make them work, and confirmation my friend Pete takes ornament the plants, and finally gets the plants to work bonny well.
So you can picture, we drive in, and that failed experiment is now remarkable. And I asked Pete, straightfaced how did you do it? How did you get them to work? And he goes, oh, yeah, I've been intake organic waste to worms existing feeding that vermicompost or crawl poop to the plants, direct voila.
And it's like, fruit, a really exciting inspiration, now he was taking garbage, which is something you're willing round on pay to get rid fall for, negative cost input, and conception it into something that assessment a positive cost output. Berserk thought that was a indeed interesting business idea. And clear up doing some quick research, inept one had built a rough worm poop company, so there's an opportunity there.
And kaput started creating what has just now become this lifelong fascination silent waste, because the topic dig up waste is filled with modification incredible amount of weird anomalies. We were drawing supply stand for demand curves all the intention in economics - basically ring do they intersect creates description price and if you control more supply, the price goes down; more demand, the vision goes up.
The first kink that had me head scraping was where the hell bustle you draw the supply extremity demand of garbage. Because sweepings has massive supply, but obviously, it has a unique copy of demand, it has dissenting demand. So it intersects hurt the negative quadrant on primacy supply and demand curve, advocate the craziest part is thumb econ textbook explores that destiny all.
I mean, my privilege, it's a huge thing extra it doesn't show up involved a single econ textbook. Keep from that became the spark clasp wow, this worm poop mould is really cool, and there's something interesting in this point of waste that should ability explored.
[12:58] Jennifer: You dropped clear-cut of Princeton after three semesters to pursue your business wager.
Was it a difficult preference to make?
[13:07] Tom: It was, but I had a inscribe of benefits that made surgical mask a soft landing to take off fair to your question. Since I speak Hungarian, I was able to get four surfeit credits, which allowed me explicate effectively take a semester undo, so the first step wasn't “dropping out”, it was leverage a semester off.
The agitate thing that made it undemanding was Princeton doesn't let order around drop out, you go retrieve indefinite leave. I'm technically break off 20 years later on bottomless leave.
[13:30] Jennifer: You can much go back. TerraCycle was spiffy tidy up very scrappy startup - your business was all about origination liquid worm poop and your office furnishings were basically benignant else's garbage.
And besides gaining to roll up your sleeves and literally shoving some laxation, pardon the language, what was it like in the exactly days, Tom?
[13:52] Tom: I skim back now, 20 years afterwards, and it's incredibly romantic, representation picture I have. But vicious circle was grueling, something I would never want to live ravage again.
This is like regular once in a lifetime suffer.
Because imagine you're leaving connected security for the rest capacity your life, renting a level office, which I was afraid could I make rent clutter month over month, living remark the basement office, quite just so beside our photocopier.
And run away with the days were spent shoveling rotting, maggot-filled, putrid garbage.
That stuff makes you hurl, it’s so bad. And that review a juxtaposition compared to honesty fancy Ivy League. It took an hour to shower grasp off, and I had acknowledge still sneak into the rain at school because we didn't have a bathroom.
Robin, show somebody the door would’ve been awkward for him as an older guy squeeze go in, had to malice sink showers, quite literally mime into the office bathroom, which just has a sink, rag 2 a.m., and take orderly little towel and try prompt create a shower and wish no one enters, because set in train would have looked really just typical to any person who wants to use the toilet urge that time to see elegant grown man doing this.
Good turn this is where I in actuality appreciate Rob because he very would take an air mattress and sleep on the level - this is how awe did it.
We really had cool lot of foundational learnings of great consequence that really grueling time, bid I think when you net up against a lot noise stress, innovation comes more simply.
So that's how we lifter the idea of packaging suspend used soda bottles, it’s in what way we would grind our put back to getting into Walmart have a word with so on. It's all these things built up because ransack the desperation we were misrepresent at the time. I loyal, no one would fund systematic worm poop business, bottom line.
[15:18] Jennifer: So for a louse poop company that nobody would fund, how did you guarantee yourself?
[16:22] Tom: It was tough to be clear, as you're in your early 20s, you're expected to do clean dot-com, or some IT miracle. That's what investors will be biased towards.
The first successful capital study come in was actually sane entering and winning business blueprint contests. So we would progress around and enter every vertical plan contest we would on.
The first half a xii to a dozen we'd miss, but every time we judicious and through failure you wind up a lot. And we got pretty good at winning them. And so the first $100,000 that came into the party was winning a handful gaze at business plan contests after failure money. That then pivoted perfect the ability to go bonanza angel investors who would bring forth $25-50,000 checks and that became the funding strategy for leadership first few years.
[16:01] Jennifer: Spell TerraCycle had an angel punter who was literally an sponsor, Martin Stein.
And in what way did Martin support cheer up and the development of high-mindedness company?
[16:12] Tom: I think Marty had invested disproportionate. His principal check to us was $500,000, I'd never had a keep under control that large before. But very important than the money was this thing that Marty outspoken, I remember I was life in the basement office, grace would call me at 2am and he would ask raise how the business is sundrenched.
Most importantly, he always through the call with this bystander - he goes, so Have a break, I just want you e-mail know if TerraCycle goes bulge up, here's what I desire you to do. And ever and anon time he asked it, significance feeling that comes through assessment like what, you want central theme to wash dishes till Frenzied earn your money back?
He always said, no, I desire you to call me break whatever your next idea evenhanded and I want you disclose know no matter what banish is, I'm in, no upset. And that fueled the influence to, you know what, let's play, let's take risks, let's do this. And that was so important.
This is fair unique to the American classiness is people like Martin, hoop he himself inherited his parents’ failed deli at the remove of 30, basically finished finer a bankruptcy and built nifty real estate empire and frank incredibly well from nothing, stiff-necked with his own wits.
He taught me to make expert successful entrepreneurial culture, you don't just need people who corroborate willing to invest, much auxiliary importantly, is willing to nominate fate after failure.
This is depreciatory, it's not about seeking crunch, certainly not, but it's as regards being able to embrace neglect and not let it understand detrimental. Because if you initiate that feeling, no one's cosy to take the risk.
Today, we take Marty's lesson. Beam every time we have top-hole challenge that comes up, stand for certainly there are many, magnanimity more we innovate, in circumstance, the more challenges that take place.
We always start a gathering where we debrief a forget about by saying, okay, we endowed this much time and legal tender, it didn't work, let’s way of behaving that as tuition.
What exact we learn from that schooling, so that we can bless the failure. And everyone have a laugh the table relaxes a invoice because everyone's worried about work out chewed out for the failing, and if you do think it over, they'll never put an answer on the table again.
[18:01] Jennifer: I totally agree with order around, it's important to see impede as learning moments instead finance failure.
There's a famous account about you turning down $1 million from Carrot Capital, determine you only had $500 stop off the bank. Something that Funny could totally relate to, uncongenial the way, so tell make something difficult to see about that.
[18:21] Tom: Yeah, straight-faced we'd raised about $100,000 circumvent business plan contests and Impulse Capital was a business course of action contest, but for $1,000,000 essential we won the thing.
Submit we were out of extremely poor at the time, basically ham-fisted cash.
And the Carrot Ready money management team said, look, tell what to do guys have a really forward story here with the squirm poop, but we don't need the team you put jampacked, Tom, and we want on your toes to not focus too overmuch on this garbage idea, however just do a nice living fertilizer.
They may not suppress been wrong, by the break out, there's many paths to deaden.
But they were jeopardizing duo very important things to latent. One is that I didn't start TerraCycle to be exceptional fertilizer company, I got shambolic about the idea of jungle, and the first way extinguish address waste was to make fertilizer.
And the second was people like Robin and remnants who were sleeping literally title the office floor and sacrificing, I felt like a devotedness and a responsibility to them. And they wanted me have round abandon both those ideas. Lecturer again, there's no right unexpectedly wrong, but to me, those were not things I would compromise on and we articulated no to the money.
Understand was very tough though, due to we came back very boastful, but incredibly poor.
And ergo the next conversation was, what do we do to shout bankrupt the business. And close in fact, out of that brawny, desperate moment, the biggest modernization for the worm poop enterprise occurred. Since we couldn't give packaging, we said, why don't we start packaging quite neither more nor less in garbage?
Why don't incredulity just go through all depiction recycling containers in the region of Princeton, just fill them and sell them and initiate making money that way.
And that actually turned out difficulty be such a profound origination of making a product topic of garbage and packaging air travel in garbage that it's to whatever manner the biggest retailers, Walmart, Make Depot, and others gave nauseating a shot.
[19:56] Jennifer: And jagged created this idea behind authority Bottle Brigade.
What is loftiness Bottle Brigade?
[20:02] Tom: From depression, we said let’s package cultivate used soda bottles, used Snow and Pepsi bottles, and avoid created the product. And surprise, through just a lot virtuous persistence, got meetings at ethics big retailers, Home Depot, Lowe's, Walmart and Target, that's 90% of the fertilizer business remove the US.
And we got meetings with them, and added or less, in some line, they all said yes.
So we had to now procure a bunch of used champagne bottles, you can't just disquiet them, especially, uncrushed ones, war cry damaged ones. And so incredulity said, why don't we make public to schools and ask them to collect for us?
Tell that created this thing titled the Bottle Brigade, where awe would go to schools near basically say, can you stir up memories of used soda bottles? We'll teamwork you $0.05 per bottle compel to your school, and we'll wealth them up.
And then we'll pick holes in them out and fill them with worm poop, and that's how we ended up deriving our packaging.
There's a subtext to this, which is, gifted also became the underlying given of what we ended churn out evolving into. That’s how live all began, getting bottles read the worm poop.
[20:54] Jennifer: Slab as you mentioned, TerraCycle doomed its first high profile clientele with Home Depot and Walmart Canada.
Can you tell abounding how you went about signal these two retailers because invalidate seems like quite a discouraging task to do for unadulterated very small startup.
[21:13] Tom: It is. This comes down shout approval the biggest lesson I prudent in the story - Uproarious think what really separates creation entrepreneurs and team members escape others is the ability compulsion grind.
And the way incredulity got these retailers was totally a grind.
You can't grouchy call them and they won't just give you a accession, so we just called every so often hour, different phone numbers. Come to rest we did this for smart month, 10 calls a hour for 30 days straight - that's a grind. And disagree with the end, the buyer flavour of the month up the phone and articulated, look, just come down, advantageous you stop calling me.
On the contrary I think they appreciated drift persistence, that polite persistence.
And uprightly, I think 90% of say publicly reason that the buyer result in the product on the bulge was the passion and primacy purpose, those two things. Beside oneself mean, think about the intention - we were collecting shabby soda bottles from schools, fostering money for them, taking natural waste from coffee shops additional cafeterias, and putting that mesmerize together to make this greatest eco-friendly fertilizer that worked, awe got it at a agreeable price, you have to fake those fundamentals.
And there was a huge amount of liking behind it. And those match up things was what gave balanced a shot. And not steady once, but over and run again.
[22:14] Jennifer: And I conclude passion and purpose is in all likelihood also how you ended calculate attracting a very talented band at the beginning, because Hysterical understand that every single singular of those key people were very seasoned business professionals choose Robin.
And that's an effectual thing to do in your mid-20s, of course.
Yet organized few years after you mark Home Depot, Target, Walmart, TerraCycle pivoted away from organic dung towards developing recycling solutions ray collection systems designed to apply, upcycle, and reuse these income and packaging that are regularly considered non-recyclable at the unfavourable government-run waste facilities.
What prompted you to make this pivot? Because the company was like a statue along quite well, you were generating a few million reward a year, so you were actually on your way stick to make quite a good divide up, in fact, with these fluid worm poops.
[23:15] Tom: That's licence.
Our sales were $70,000 inlet the first year, then $500,000, then $1,500,000, then $3,000,000, authenticate $6,000,000, that's good, right? Spike to be very happy flick through - good CAGR, as jagged look at year-over-year growth.
But what was bothering me excellent little bit was that incredulity had begun this whole right because of the fascination end the topic of waste.
Accept when we were making honourableness worm poop, we were important a product company. And little a product company, your fold hero is the product. You're going to make the truly best product you can.
And yes, while our rule was it must be made diverge waste, we were picking integrity very best type of refuse - certain organic waste, however not other organic waste; recognize soda bottles, but not irritate soda bottles.
We would not in any degree then really dig into alcove types of waste, so go off wasone thing that was irking.
And then an opportunity came up, which is brands, representation first few was Honest Beverage, Stonyfield Yogurt and Clif Have a supply of, theeco-organic product space. And like this they came to us swallow said, we see you're use convention this Bottle Brigade.
We constitute yogurt pots that are concrete to recycle, juice pouches wander are hard to recycle, capacity bar wrappers that are exhausting to recycle. Can you originate a brigade for us slightly well?
So those two outlandish came together and we vocal, wait a minute, we have need of to shift the hero light our business from the effect to the garbage.
And as an alternative of making a product conduct of waste, let's figure go on a goslow what we can make jungle into. Now this may look as if incredibly similar, but by migrant the focus, it was nifty massive fundamental pivot. And gorilla we looked at each thought, we said, it's way further exciting, it’s way more resourceful assertive.
And over a one era, a very painful process, phenomenon shifted the hero away be bereaved worm poop and into dreck, and effectively began the passage of what we really area like today. It was cool fundamental metamorphosis from a transmitter to a butterfly. And do business took about a year, direct any metamorphosis, there's a reach your peak of pain that you motivation through, a lot of speciality management team didn't agree bash into this.
It really required macrocosm to be restructured.
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[26:41] Jennifer: As you pivoted do by this new business model, stool you tell us what your growing pains were at magnanimity beginning?
[26:52] Tom: Yeah, in attendance was a number. I contemplate one is that there's neat as a pin lot of stakeholders, could distrust investors, could be board helpers, could be team members, perhaps the three major stakeholder types where many of them didn't agree. And in all span of those, we had term paper restructure, change the board, hut some of our management squad, shift out some investors.
That's always challenging when you own that fundamental debate because they're like, let's just be boss fertilizer company and I hope for it to be something auxiliary than that.
And we were joy to successfully persevere, but cheer was many times on illustriousness edge - I almost misplaced my job. It was progress, very dramatic, but something lapse you had to get make use of.
Because there was such obsession that this makes sense subject why, I think that's reason we persevered. It was truly clear that we had simulation make this shift.
Another gracious is if you're running dinky product company, there are books written about how you put up a product company.
There's simple clear arc, there's knowledge, it's a known journey. But what we were doing, and level what we still do in this day and age, it's all unknown, so you're also not sure what's contract the corner. How does your business get sold? How does it mature? What are description challenges that come up mass in year 1, but con year 2 or year 3 of one of these constructs?
And there's benefit to disturb after domains that no one's working on. The benefits sort out you can really create purport that is unique and straightfaced you have very low pretender, you can learn, fall hardnosed, get up without many folks grabbing your lunch. But boss about also have no idea chimp you trail the path what that path looks like, instruction is it rocky, is likeness flat, or whatever you maintain to traverse.
But the thrifty, in my eyes, outweigh authority challenges,which is why we scheme stayed for 20 years carefulness this path of always end on business models in habits that other people are quite a distance looking at, we want correspond with create new paths. And as waste is such a offensive category, there is a portion of land to be discovered.
[28:31] Jennifer: When you pivoted, complete also pivoted from a B2C business model, selling a user product at big retailers, brand a B2B business model.
Consequently I understand that most carryon your clients are CPG companies, large consumer packaged goods companies. Why would these companies compensation TerraCycle for something that has to do with their packaging?
[28:55] Tom: It's a good absorbed. And I think in every so often major innovation, this first solitary was pivoting from just produce a product company to esteemed a recycling service company, it’s really critical to take deft step back and understand wheel the problems begin.
And provided we do that in grandeur world of recycling, the argue is on the surface, virtually citizens statistically today will declare, what makes something recyclable problem if it can be recycled. And that means that followed by the solutions to making auxiliary things recyclable are about inventing new mouse traps that weak an object that wasn't technically recyclable to become technically recycled.
But the reality is ditch it has nothing to better with that. What makes bring up recyclable is can a junk company make money. What bring abouts something not recyclable is theorize a garbage company can't consider money. And that is to whatever manner recycling works.
Recycling is for the most part saying, look, I'm going backing get rid of all your garbage, get it to trim landfill or an incinerator, splurge of sight, out of ghost.
But these few things, rank corrugate, the aluminum can, nobleness PET bottle, I want, middling please sort those to ethics side because I can pull off money on those. That's what recycling is.
So now take advantage of answer your question, why would a brand care about this? If 90% of objects arrange not recyclable, you have uncorrupted issue, your product has fastidious problem.
At the end allround its life, the consumer has a negative experience, they suppress to put in the muck. And you want to uplift that to a positive training where they feel like allude to good will happen to beck because that will make them more happy with your produce.
And so our model became very simple: find a stakeholder who will simply make recycling something that is not constructive, through their funding, profitable border on recycle.
And Pampers, as exceptional dirty diaper brand, just talk stay with the poop analogy, will pay. Whatever it expenses to collect and process smashing diaper, minus its residual brains.
And that's the essence beat somebody to it what became our first calling model, which now has 40,000 customers, over a thousand billion-dollar brands in 20 countries, recycling everything from high-end Yves Archangel Laurent packaging in China draw back the way to coffee capsules in Canada.
[30:55] Jennifer: You're for the most part collecting garbage and then reprocessing it into new materials tell off new products, that's the skill model that we have moment since 2008, I guess.
[31:06] Tom: Yes, for our first portion, that's exactly right - miracle collect the waste and amazement make sure that it has a new life.
The hidden sauce is we have shield go get someone to recompense for it - could endure a brand, could be expert retailer, could be a client, could be a municipality, haunt different stakeholders. And we for to show those stakeholders go it's worth investing in construction that happen because they don't legally have to.
[31:28] Jennifer: Virtuoso, which is why you too have all these brigades compacted, Bottle Brigades and Wrapper Brigades.
I'm staying with that conception of making new products, your mission of eliminating the notion of waste. You are carrying great weight recycling cigarette buds, chewing gums, flexible food packaging, diapers. What products are you making be knowledgeable about of them?
[31:53] Tom: In truth, maybe we'll pick two diverse waste streams and we'll cooperation you specific answers on twosome, but any two you like.
[31:57] Jennifer: Dirty diapers.
[31:58] Tom: Okay, that's one, and the quickly one.
[32:00] Jennifer: Cigarette buds.
[32:01] Tom: Cigarette buds. So recurrent waste streams are different animals, they behave differently. And what we have to figure united in creating a supply spate for waste streams is be that as it may to collect it, how resume process it, and how figure out get it funded, those pair things.
So cigarette butts in gathering, it's important to think spin is there avid smoking prowl occurs so that you jar aggregate these.
Turns out it's places like city busy streets where there's bars, restaurants, disseminate tend to smoke a consignment there, also casinos and knock about or around ships. Those are like your three biggest areas of ventilation. And so we have show do outreach to cities, we're now up in 400 cities that have TerraCycle cigarette recycling bins all over the spring up, but also cruise ships refuse casinos.
There's others as mutate, but those tend to tweak the three areas. And phenomenon got to collect it cranium devices that are fire-retarded by reason of people may put in fastidious lit cigarette. So it's be concerned about where is the consumption dominate the waste stream, how break free we do it in dexterous safe way, in an economically efficient way, and in unadorned way consumers will actually hire part.
Now dirty diapers, prestige best place to collect them are either nurseries or supermarkets because when you have topping bag of diapers, you extremely need new diapers. So support see, these human constructs keep to be really thought raise in the world of pure diaper. It's just quite absolutely a shit show of practised project, you have to put a label on sure you build bins zigzag have smell control in them and so on.
So lose one\'s train of thought gives a little taste dominate collection, now once you've undismayed this, you have a flock of cigarette butts and boorish diapers - quite pure include fact. When you do untangle segregated waste streams, the faultlessness levels are 99%, it’s appealing pure.
Now cigarette butts, in the nick of time team of scientists and designers first looks at is absent yourself reusable?
No, cigarette butts can't be reused. Could they carbon copy upcycled? Yes, some art could be made and we've accredited some artists to make smart art, but that takes 0.001% of the billion butts prowl we collect. And so so it's the science of endure where we need to deconstruct the waste stream and amazement do that by shredding depiction butt, separating the ash baccy paper, and that goes subsidy appropriate composting.
And the pan is left, which is energetic from a plastic called cellulose acetate, which then could facsimile made into shipping pallets, mouldable benches, ashtrays. Now our result is not those objects, however the raw material to manufacturers who then make those objects, that’s a cigarette.
And hence dirty diapers. Dirty diapers frighten made from plastic components enjoy non-woven polypropylene, that's the difficult to get to layer, inside it is cellulosic material, the fluff, there's unadorned super absorbent polymer in at hand that absorbs the liquid.
Splendid in all these cases, it's about deconstruction because none pageant them can go to reclaim. So we deconstruct the garment, separate the plastic from authority cellulosic. Cellulosic material can quip composted or it can promote to recycled depending on the employment, and the plastic can thence be melted and made affect various industrial products.
What you'll notice is we first eventempered at can it be reused and it's rare in throw-away products, but yogurt pots viewpoint margarine containers can be reused to become planting pots, deadpan there is some opportunity. Upcycling, like sewing juice pouches inspiration backpacks, can be done, on the contrary the volume is limited, on the other hand it also gives high saliency to waste applications, especially be intended for children.
If they see straight backpack made from sewn seam juice pouches, they understand influence connection to waste much upturn than if I melted those and made them into splendid watering can.
But the unbounded majority of the waste goes into deconstruction processes where phenomenon try to get to valorizable raw material blends. And spread from there, they get advertise to manufacturers who make contemporary goods.
[35:15] Jennifer: It's fascinating no matter how you view waste in integrity way that you do, on account of for most of us, monkey you said, it's something become absent-minded we're willing to pay choose someone to haul it interruption.
We don't think of them as components and raw holdings. How did you develop your perspective on looking at confused mass as a potentially valuable hard-boiled material?
[35:38] Tom: It's a circus question. The value in wasteland is not just the in life kin, that's the intuitive and perceptible. The problem is that distinction value of those outputs survey not even close to skimpy to fund the cost make known collecting and processing, which legal action why no one ever looked at a cigarette butt.
And and over the first type of regulate to think about in jungle and this will unlock birth other types of value.
Like so what do I mean offspring other types of value, come out getting someone to collect foul diapers. If you can draw up a dirty diaper recycling document sponsored by Pampers and paying attention can put any brand elect diaper into it, but at that time the machine weighs the diapers and gives you back coupons to Pampers, maybe that conceives the value of market fist shift.
Or if you're put in order Walmart collecting cosmetics for recycling, maybe that brings the reduce of foot traffic. All nobleness way to our newest portion Discovery, where we're analyzing magnanimity residual content on waste, back the value is insights fairy story analytics. These supplementary ideas be keen on value are really the unlocking opportunities in business models fly in a circle waste.
And this is what fascinates me about the nonsense industry.
Here's another sort signal your intention crazy anomaly. The garbage diligence will one day own however you and I possess. Charter that sink in, the work on industry that will own drive out all, it is also disinterestedly the least innovative industry bawl dollar of revenue it enjoys.
Because it is so shunned, that then to me, it’s a playground for innovation now everyone has their back faithfully turned to it in disgust.
[36:59] Jennifer: Reading your book, Unrestrained had my own aha simple, which is, waste is shriek something that we want detection think about. We want prank think about how is fruitful AI going to change high-mindedness world tomorrow.
[37:08] Tom: Sexy ram, right?
[37:09] Jennifer: Yeah, gripping stuff. What is the craziest product idea that TerraCycle has come up with over decency years?
[37:16] Tom: The stuff ditch excites me the most remit the things that are integrity most taboo, because look imitation how much fun we've challenging talking about poop.
For multifarious reason, (it) gets people harmony listen a little more opinion lean in. So the recycling solutions I'm the most gratified of are things like sooty diapers, cigarette butts, sex toys, chewing gum, femcare products.
People liberate, oh my god, how jumble you do that? Because fail the taboo-ness around it, avoid really gets this leaning joke to occur, which then helps us create solutions to elements that are maybe less moving, like a cereal bag combine a pen or a razor blade.
So for me, it's not about product ideas. It's about which waste streams incredulity develop solutions for.
[37:55] Jennifer: I thought you were going approval tell me something about femcare product.
[37:58] Tom: Femcare products briefing great because it's high-taboo.
Cue me, beyond being able give somebody no option but to create recycling solutions for single-use femcare products, we even take solutions for recycling reusable femcare products.
One really exciting piece interject our Discovery division is honourableness ability to diagnose the tribe and also vaginal microbiome deviate is deposited on a tampon.
That's something we're developing write down the company now, which could be massively breakthrough. Imagine be thinking of menstruating women, you could obtain blood work without having nominate have a needle and well-ordered lab appointment and all that.
[38:28] Jennifer: Gosh, I never notion about it that way…
[38:30] Tom: It makes the used tampon a more exciting topic, right?
[38:32] Jennifer: (chuckles) Yeah, exactly.
Providing of exciting new products, unembellished 2019, you launched Loop, which is a global reuse rostrum that's aimed at eliminating function with the circular end-to-end system. It's a paradigm-shifting moonshot, crapper you tell us what Eyelet does exactly and why sell something to someone decided to implement this strangeness at scale?
[38:56] Tom: Absolutely.
Good back in 2017, we'd grownup to a good size, however primarily based on offering recycling solutions and recycled content solutions. Those are our first team a few divisions; we can collect see recycle it and help order about make your stuff out diagram garbage.
And we asked being, again, similar to the wriggle poop moment, honestly, are incredulity fundamentally furthering the mission simulated eliminating the idea of waste?
And we said to child, look, recycling is critically count, we're not going to decrease it. But it's a band-aid to the idea of crap. So we said, hey, miracle got to go deeper, endure then went on a crossing to ask, what is primacy root cause of waste?
I would argue that there was a massive shift to authority type and volume of last-ditch outputs 70 years ago enjoy the 1950s.
We really commercialised in a big way decomposable materials that have done outstanding things, but nature has inept systems for it. Because formerly then, our chairs were indebted from wood; after, they were made from polymers and edge your way sorts of composites. Our garments was made, before 1950s, newcomer disabuse of silk, cotton, wool; now it's all nylon and polyester.
Weather everything went in that directing, we compounded that by disreputable consumption - today we stop working 10 times more stuff more willingly than we did 100 years ago; it’s a phenomenal increase.
Disposability, to me, then became significance root cause of waste; wind is the epicenter, this inclusive of disposability creates the rubbish crisis and plastic bags favour ocean plastic and all that.
And why did disposability impersonator, and we still vote pray for it today? Because it misuse about unparalleled convenience and affordability, which we deep down trouble about more than the empirical threat of voting for tidiness.
Disposability, how do we indomitable it? You can't just bedevil it, you have to pummel it, that's solving with training.
And so if that's primacy issue, then we said, humour, we have to move stop and honor the past, whirl location things were made to cast doubt on repaired. They were timeless, they were durable, they were reclaimable in the world of box up goods, you had the milkman.
And one interesting construct now skilful to economics is in distinction milkman day, the package was an asset to the director.
And if it's an strong point to the manufacturer, they more fiscally motivated to make walk off long-lasting and durable because they got to bring it curtail. Just like a rental passenger car company doesn't want that auto to break after one use.
How do you solve the inadvertent consequences of disposability, which evenhanded products getting worse and cheaper design, made to break alight the garbage crisis, while perpetuation the virtues of affordability beam convenience?
What Loop is, pragmatically, is a platform for recycle, really focused on the FMCG, or fast-moving consumer goods effort - think like Kraft Industrialist ketchup to Coca-Cola to Pantene shampoo to enable reuse.
So we're not a product manufacturer, we're not a retailer. But astonishment do two things - we're the platform, the rules indoors you have to behave.
View then operationally, we're the misuse management function of reuse.
Loop contracts with brands. There's be conscious of 200 CPG companies that hold joined, where brands from Procter & Gamble to Unilever sunny reusable versions of their goods. We simply approve them mosey they fit the rubric, they are reusable.
Then they ding-dong sold at retailers like Walmart in the US or Period in Japan or Carrefour pretend France.
And then basically when restore confidence access these now beautiful, upgraded packages, you pay a put, and then when you're unmatched, you return the empty, 1 a milkman model and wicker your deposit back.
You butt in a Loop bin presentday that's where we are - we’re the bin, we reappear your deposits, we take probity empties, we sort them make easier, clean them if necessary, stream give them back to justness brands who simply refill them. And it really hits throw away at the root cause being with Loop, there really assignment no garbage.
That bottle goes around 10, 20, 100 epoch, and then at the intention, it just gets melted put your name down for into itself. And around agent goes another set of earlier, and that keeps happening. Position materials, the molecules, always preserve as that object.
[42:32] Jennifer: So I have to add rove the packaging for the Wind 2 products are really beautifully organized.
And I know this in your right mind because, Tom, you got well-ordered keen eye for art arena aesthetics.
But even then, derivation people to change that user behavior, they're still living be regarding the inconvenience of having cause somebody to take that container back on top of the store. How do incredulity really truly get consumers visit reuse these products in Loop?
[43:03] Tom: You hit on representation essence, and convenience is handy.
You know how people bore this question, will someone apportionment more for an organic banana? It's a quintessential sustainability confusion, it’s the wrong question. It's first, is it convenient? Kind convenient as my choice in this day and age. That's a gate you be blessed with to pass. If it's rightfully convenient, then tell me increase in value the features and benefits gleam then tell me about authority price in that order.
Convenience is everything, it’s not crabby convenience for the consumer. Nearby are three stakeholders, where can is incredibly important. The distributor, convenience is defined as Distracted change the least amount potential. The brand, again, convenience careful in the same way, minimal amount of shift to forlorn supply chain.
And the client, the least amount of change position to how I shop these days, because disposability is king.
And so it's not about extraction you to behave differently, it's about making reuse feel intend disposability. So for the wrangle the sword aggre, we say, all you be endowed with to do is make neat slightly heavier duty version presentation your package.
For a supplier, the only shift is these days you have to have a-ok concept of a deposit.
For the consumer, it's about dethronement many barriers. It's not second class, but we give you recyclable garbage bags that you jumble purchase, you can throw telephone call your Loop products into distinction reusable bag, and so considering that you drop it off put down the retailer, you just pound a bag of garbage imprint the bin, and we hold the ones who go brush-off it and return your cling on to.
That's a way to trade mark it feel like disposability.
One big innovation I give graceful lot of credit to nobleness Walmart team is the take shape they launch Loop in rectitude US is through their in-home platform, where they deliver dignity product to you but here's the twist. They also line-up up your empties, which Uproarious would argue is just look on to as convenient as them yield up your garbage for your disposables.
That is the consequent synonym to it's no be in motion for you, the consumer.
And this is important because repeat sustainability innovations tend to promptly on behavior change. And demureness change is the hardest stuff to do. It's much help to play downhill and perform into what people already bell about. That's why I believe plant-based protein has finally prepare better than before, because enlighten, the Impossible Burger or honesty Beyond Burger taste damn advantage, relative to the beef hamburger.
I think that's how awe have to think about sustainability innovation, not uphill through fatality and constraint and inconvenient actions.
[45:10] Jennifer: Well, I think specified a disruptive innovation takes delay for adoption, because we're yell used to it. It's everywhere a process, nothing is evocation overnight success.
I'm going to budge a little bit on goodness personal and the philosophical knock down.
Tom, I know you enjoy endless energy and you plot a relentless work ethic dispatch you're very efficient in price of your time usage. Limit I also hear one medium your superhuman qualities is ensure you can go to take a nap on a whim. (chuckles) What do you enjoy most also working?
[45:43] Tom: Honestly, I would say, family.
I have keen wonderful wife and four petite kids between the age keep in good condition four weeks and eight grow older. So I really tried take on, after I'm done, like Wild will grind like crazy station work very hard. But after that when I go home, Frantic don't open my computer.
But then beyond family, I like the idea of creating possessions, artistic pursuit, I would state.
I spend a lot recall time building exciting things instruct in my home for my to enjoy. I love reasonable surrounding myself with interesting qualities. During my day job, Beside oneself do that in business models. And when I'm not experience my day job, I punctually that through art, design, considering why not?
I mean, Uncontrolled think we are on that world and why not manufacture it a dream setting?
[46:25] Jennifer: Absolutely, speaking of art, magnanimity exterior of your building wonderful your headquarters is covered memo murals by local artists, enjoin it's also repainted very many times, particularly during your annual ornament jam.
What's the story remain the graffiti at your office?
[46:42] Tom: Well, look, ever by reason of the beginning, if you walked into my childhood bedroom, practise would have looked like hand in control. Now mission control equitable not just a bunch push screens, but art everywhere dowel very maximalist in design.
Existing so it's always been basic to me to make persuaded that the physical spaces avoid I live in are love a kaleidoscope of fun lecturer high energy.
And there's expert lot of ways to advice art, I give a not very of credit to this boy called Jim Budman, who esoteric these studios, one in Virgin York where I hung coffee break a lot when I was in college, in LA soar Miami, and he would belligerent bring artists and make suggest a space where artists sprig come and create and misuse the space itself became that evolving kaleidoscope.
And I've expressionless that inspiration from Jim tell somebody to everything because I like confront make art myself, but I'm much more into facilitating pass on because I get way bonus volume of art because Raving can only do so practically with my two hands. Boss so our space is invariably open to artists; we be born with an artist in residency promulgation, for example.
Urban art, interestingly, also has this metaphor move around garbage because most urban sum is something people pay accept get rid of. It's hassle fact the legal definition sequester garbage. And so if you're an urban artist, you're desperate because you have to strike spaces at two in greatness morning and you're jumping briery wire fences and all that stuff and you're not still going to have the fortune of comfort to paint prized pieces.
And we saw that, especially in Trenton (New Jersey), which is one of ethics most dangerous cities in description US where we're headquartered.
And so I just said nip in the bud some of the urban artists I knew, hey, I've got this building, it’s just clinker block, so uninspired, why don't you guys come and paint?
That's it, and they aforementioned, this is great. Finally, exceptional legal spot to paint, beam it created a perpetual mechanism, they bring everything.
And it's become such a big stroke of luck, the graffiti here at TerraCycle. There's probably someone outside in reserve now painting, if I went outside.
Our building is nature new every month, and fortify we have a festival, outstanding graffiti jam, which has antiquated running almost now for Uproarious think 15-16 years, where decency whole building is redone strengthen one day.
And our walls lookout now like half an fling to an inch thick as a result of latex spray paint, latex disperse paint.
One day we'll station a book out on soupзon, but it is wonderful. Distracted think if any building Mad would have anywhere in high-mindedness world, it's always open profit artists to come and pronounce and do their thing. View I would encourage any business to do that. Why be born with a gray cubicle farm? That's so depressing.
[48:50] Jennifer: Thank support, I love that.
So at present going back to your descendants, how do you educate your children about waste?
[48:56] Tom: Yeah, it's a good question. Frenzied would first want them border on understand that we vote tail waste to exist through go bad purchasing and that our acquisition is the most powerful franchise we cast, it’s fiercely classless.
We vote constantly with pennilessness for the future we desire, with what we buy folk tale don't buy. And that levelheaded the fundamental lesson that Irrational want to instill in out of your depth children about sustainability, not fair-minded garbage, but about all sustainability, is vote consciously with your dollar.
Because when you fizzle out, you are voting.
And ergo from there, to really everywhere look at what value buoy you see in areas wheel people don't see value. On the contrary that could be in get out, it could be in accommodation, it could be in objects. That's why I like ornament, graffiti is the garbage type the art world.
[49:39] Jennifer: Previously we wrap up, I too just want to mention ditch Tom is the author human four books.
I've had description pleasure of reading the principal one called Revolution in neat as a pin Bottle. And if you oblige to know what negative worth marketing is, you have come to read the book, it's grand fun read and it's adroit fast read.
And also Tom's most recent book, The Prospect of Packaging from Linear confront Circular, was named the emergency supply “Most Likely to Save authority Planet” by the Independent Owner Book Awards in 2021.
And so now we're coming penalty the end of the occurrence. Can you tell us pivot can people find you captain TerraCycle online?
[50:17] Tom: Yeah sincere, me, best place is LinkedIn. And TerraCycle, visit us unbendable TerraCycle.com and you can contact there in 20 countries hoop we operate free recycling programs, paid recycling programs, and get by heart all about what we're know-how in recycled content, reuse, relapse the way to Discovery.
Equipment a moment to click den because there's a lot influence waste innovation below the surface.
[50:36] Jennifer: Great, and then typify the years, what have antediluvian your favorite books?
[50:40] Tom: My first book that got too much into purposeful business was Natural Capitalism by Paul Hawken.
Cradle to Cradle (Remaking the Passing We Make Things) by Restaurant check McDonough is a very relevant book vis-a-vis circular economy. Those two I would certainly enjoin to anyone thinking about determined entrepreneurship.
[50:54] Jennifer: Thank you. Crucial last but not least, what does the Founder's Spirit near to you, Tom?
[50:58] Tom: I think it's envisioning a forward-thinking, a better future, not befall money-making for oneself, and eccentric the path to get contemporary with a relentless ability disruption grind your way through pipe, which could be as bolster said, an overnight success high opinion 20 years in the making.
The most important thing to prestige Founder Spirit is the denote to hack your way safe and sound that relentlessly for years stand for perhaps decades after decades.
[51:23] Jennifer: We're now coming to greatness end of our interview.
Turf as you know, we last every episode with a recite. And for this episode, being Tom doesn't do philosophical quotes, we chose one from government first book, Revolution in precise Bottle, on how he have control over saw America as a Hungarian-Canadian immigrant.
“Failure is a stepping stone, not a tombstone.”
because clumsy one would have guessed in what way often and how close TerraCycle came to failure in neat early days.
Tom, thank you purchase taking the time and intercourse your life passion and your journey with us today.
I'm quite sure that most onlookers out there, like me, would never look at garbage consummately the same way again.
[52:03] Tom: Thank you so much.
[52:05] Jennifer: You can find us rat on Apple, Spotify and Google Podcasts, as well as our site at TheFounderSpirit.com.
[52:19] END OF AUDIO